As we begin to address this question, please keep in mind the following:
First, not all Mormons voted for, campaigned for, or supported Prop 8. Just as it is bad for Mormons who feel persecuted for supporting Prop 8 to lump into one violent group all Prop 8 opponents, it is wrong for Prop 8 opponents to assume that all Mormons (or Catholics, or Evangelicals or …) voted on the “other side.”
Second, there are lots of ways to express anger, disappointment, grief, impatience and the host of other feelings resulting from the election results. There are avenues for channeling that energy and focusing it on lawful, productive measures to effect change in US and individual state laws. People on both sides are feeling picked on, hurt and vulnerable, and it does neither side any good to reinforce negative stereotypes of one another.
A document has been floating around the internet purporting to delineate the facts about the passage of Proposition 8. Our response to those facts is included on this page.
The Facts:
1. Mormons make up only 2% of the population of California. There are approximately 750,000 LDS out of a total population of approximately 36 million.
“Mormon members were instrumental in the campaign, there’s no question. They donated far in excess of their representation in the population.” - Fred Schubert, a spokesman for ProtectMarriage.com, as quoted in the Salt Lake Tribune on November 21, 2008.
2. If one estimates that 250,000 LDS are registered voters (the rest being children), then out of a total of 5,661,583 yes votes, LDS voters made up 4.4% of the Yes vote and 2.3% of the total Proposition 8 vote (11,050,301).
Yes, and if you only count the active Mormons, that’s closer to only 375,000. And if you only count the active adults, it’s probably two-thirds of that number, or about 247,500. And if you only count the ones who are registered to vote AND who voted for the proposition (not all Mormons voted for the proposition), the numbers and percentages of California’s electorate are even smaller. AND YET, that almost infinitesimally small number of active adult Mormons donated the lion’s share of the money and comprised 80-90% of the early election volunteers, according to the leaders of the ProtectMarriage coalition. LDS Church members donated more than any other single group or even more than other individual religious members of the coalition. Why did Mormons donate and volunteer their time in such disproportionate numbers? Because, as Fact #3 points out, “members of the Church were encouraged to support the Yes on 8 efforts” by the First Presidency of the Church, the prophets, seers and revelators who lead and guide the Mormons.
3. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) donated no money to the Yes on 8 campaign (except for a nominal, and legal, in-kind donation of $2,078.97, to cover the travel expenses of leaders coming from Utah for a meeting). Individual members of the Church were encouraged to support the Yes on 8 efforts and, exercising their constitutional right to free speech, donated whatever they felt like donating.
The Church actually reported two in-kind donations (only the first donation was widely publicized in the media). A quick check of the spreadsheet at this website shows both donations (one filed October 27th, another filed November 2nd). While members did donate whatever they felt like donating, reports from donors themselves confirm that some were given suggested donation amounts, some were asked to donate more than once, some were told that donations to support Proposition 8 were as important as tithing donations. Wards and Stakes were given financial goals (or assessments) to meet, and members were encouraged by local leaders to include their ward and stake information on donation forms so that their wards and stakes could receive “credit” for the donations. Donations that came in with LDS donation forms were sent to a special PO Box where LDS information was notated so it could be reported back to stake presidents prior to the money being forwarded to the Protect Marriage coalition.
4. The No on 8 campaign raised more money than the Yes on 8 campaign. Unofficial estimates put No on 8 at $38 million and Yes on 8 at $36 million, making it the most expensive non-presidential election in the country.
And without the LDS donations (encouraged by Church leaders) the Yes on 8 campaign would have been outspent at least 2-to-1.
5. Advertising messages for the Yes on 8 campaign are based on case law and real-life situations. The No on 8 supporters have insisted that the Yes on 8 messaging is based on lies. Every Yes on 8 claim is supported.
The advertising messages were based on situations that had limited application to California law. There have been several legal examinations of the Yes on 8 campaign ads which focused on scary-sounding stories of children being taught about gay marriage in Kindergarten or churches losing tax-exempt status or being required to perform marriages to which they were opposed. As those arguments have been examined and repudiated elsewhere on the internet, we won’t go into the details here. Suffice it to say that, even though Yes on 8 has passed, students will continue to remain subject to teachings in schools which demand “respect for marriage and committed relationships” and public facilities are still required to provide access to and services for all people, regardless of sex, ethnic group identification, race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, color, mental or physical disability, or sexual orientation.
6. The majority of our friends and neighbors voted Yes on 8. Los Angeles County voted in favor of Proposition 8. Ventura County voted in favor of Proposition 8. San Diego County voted in favor of Proposition 8. Orange County voted in favor of Proposition 8. San Luis Obispo County voted in favor of Proposition 8. Sacramento County voted in favor of Proposition 8. Fresno County voted in favor of Proposition 8. And the list goes on and on: Merced, San Bernardino, Riverside, Mariposa, Tulare, Imperial, etc.
Those that voted against Prop 8, include Humboldt, Mendocino, Sonoma, Alpine, Mono, San Francisco, Marin, Napa, Santa Clara, Santa Barbara, Monterey, Alameda, Contra Costa and Yolo counties
7. African Americans overwhelmingly supported Yes on 8. Exit polls show that 70% of Black voters chose Yes on 8. This was interesting because the majority of these voters voted for President-elect Obama. No on 8 supporters had assumed that Obama voters would vote No on 8.
But blacks did not donate half the money, most of the people-hours, or respond to ecclesiastical calls to spend four (or more) hours each week making phone calls and using the internet to get people interested in voting yes. They did not organize massive get-out-the-vote campaigns or spend hours on street corners waving Yes on 8 signs.
From a recent newspaper article:
Exit polls show that various social forces played out across California on Prop. 8. The older voters were, the more likely they were to vote for Prop. 8: 61 percent of those older than 65 voted for it, while 61 percent of those younger than 30 voted against it. Ideology also had a pronounced effect, particularly party affiliation: 82 percent of Republicans supported Prop. 8. Only 36 percent of Democrats supported the measure.
Religion was just as pronounced. Prop. 8 found support among 81 percent of white evangelicals, 65 percent of white Protestants, 64 percent of Catholics and 84 percent of weekly worshipers. In the exit poll’s only nonwhite category involving race and religion, 58 percent of nonwhite religious voters supported the measure. The size of these groups gave them a substantial impact on the Prop. 8 outcome: White evangelicals comprised 17 percent of the electorate, Catholics comprised 30 percent, and Republicans comprised 29 percent.
The NAACP is among the groups petitioning for California’s courts to call the Proposition 8 vote a revision rather than an amendment to the state constitution. LAMDA Legal calls racial scapegoating “destructive and unacceptable.”
8. The majority of Latino voters voted Yes on 8. Exit polls show that the majority of Latinos supported Yes on 8 and cited religious beliefs (assumed to be primarily Catholic).
See response to Fact #7, above.
9. The Yes on 8 coalition was a broad spectrum of religious organizations. Catholics, Evangelicals, Protestants, Orthodox Jews, Muslims - all supported Yes on 8. It is estimated that there are 10 million Catholics and 10 million Protestants in California. Mormons were a tiny fraction of the population represented by Yes on 8 coalition members.
They were a tiny fraction of the population, but they were the ”main (and nearly only) supporters from the faith community. Information from Church leaders reports that the work will not succeed without strong LDS involvement as volunteer efforts from other coalition members was “disappointing”. The Mormons were part of a coalition in this campaign like the US is part of a coalition in Iraq or like Goliath was part of a coalition fighting Israel.
10. Though the Church urged its members to “do all [they] can to support the proposed constitutional amendment,” not all Mormons voted in favor of Proposition 8. Our faith accords that each person be allowed to choose for him or her self. Church leaders have asked members to treat other members with “civility, respect and love,” despite their differing views.
Yet, until October when Elder L. Whitney Clayton told the press that members would not be disciplined, members were allowed to believe that opposing Prop 8 publicly could be grounds for ecclesiastical discipline including being released from callings, having temple recommends removed, being prevented from speaking up or praying in church or even being formally disfellowshiped or excommunicated. And when the leader of the grass roots campaign likens the prop 8 opponents to those who followed Satan in the pre-existence (hard to get much more evil than that in the LDS belief system), it doesn’t do much to set up an environment conducive to civility, respect and love.
11. The Church did not violate the principal of separation of church and state. This principle is derived from the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which reads, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . .” The phrase “separation of church and state”, which does not appear in the Constitution itself, is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson, although it has since been quoted in several opinions handed down by the United States Supreme Court in recent years. The LDS Church is under no obligation to refrain from participating in the political process, to the extent permitted by law. U.S. election law is very clear that Churches may not endorse candidates, but may support issues. The Church has always been very careful on this matter and occasionally (not often) chooses to support causes that it feels to be of a moral nature.
The argument that the Church rarely gets involved in political matters was used in many LDS conversations to emphasize the importance and unique aspects of supporting Proposition 8. As Elder Dallin H. Oaks said, “When churches or church leaders choose to enter the public sector to engage in debate on a matter of public policy, they should be admitted to the debate and they should expect to participate in it on the same basis as all other participants. In other words, if churches or church leaders choose to oppose or favor a particular piece of legislation, their opinions should be received on the same basis as the opinions offered by other knowledgeable organizations or persons, and they should be considered on their merits. By the same token, churches and church leaders should expect the same broad latitude of discussion of their views that conventionally applies to everyone else’s participation in public policy debates. A church can claim access to higher authority on moral questions, but its opinions on the application of those moral questions to specific legislation will inevitably be challenged by and measured against secular-based legislative or political judgments.” Dallin H. Oaks, “Religious Values and Public Policy,” Ensign, Oct 1992, 60.
12. Supporters of Proposition 8 did exactly what the Constitution provides for all citizens: they exercised their First Amendment rights to speak out on an issue that concerned them, make contributions to a cause that they support, and then vote in the regular electoral process. For the most part, this seems to have been done in an open, fair, and civil way. Opponents of 8 have accused supporters of being bigots, liars, and worse. The fact is, we simply did what Americans do - we spoke up, we campaigned, and we voted.
While many Prop 8 opponents appear to have made the mistake of assigning less-than-stellar (and sometimes inapplicable) motivations for support of Prop 8, their name-calling, picketing, marching and speaking up against those who voted to remove marriage equality from California’s laws is as much within their rights of free speech as that claimed by supporters. For the most part, opposition seems to have been done in an open fair and civil way. Think of the tens of thousands of people across the country who have voiced opposition to the vote taken in California and compare that with the despicable few who have resorted to violence, intimidation or vandalism.
26 comments ↓
And, this is now the third consecutive election cycle in which LDS campaign pros have mobilized the Mormon grassroots to make a major impact. Rewind to 2004 (remember the importance of Ohio in that year’s presidential contest?):
“Latter-day Saint Volunteers: 50% in Akron … That’s about 3% of the Latter-day Saint population in Akron, a county where Latter-day Saints only comprise about 3/10ths of a percent of the population … In the end, 50% of the poll observers were LDS … [As Bart Marcois told me, 'Our voices need to be heard during the election so that we will be included in the policy setting after the elections.']”
http://chinoblanco.blogspot.com/2008/11/eagle-foundation.html
Bless you for all that you did on this. As a Mormon myself, I still receive emails from my ward members flaunting the Prop 8 win in my face. While the leaders of the church and the stake speak of civility and respect, the Yes-on-8 supporters give me none. I find it sad that, should the positions have been reversed, they would have despised me acting in the way they have.
At some point, I hope we can all recognize that this contest has never been about “us” (meaning the decent folks on both sides of this issue) … rather, it’s always been about the LDS leadership signing off on a campaign that would never have been so vigorously pursued except for all the bad advice coming from operators like Gary Lawrence …
Mormon Prop 8 director Gary Lawrence: Familiarity breeds contempt (for Mormons)
http://www.calitics.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=7589
Gary’s suggestion? Buy his book and learn how to take blame for his mistakes.
Folks, Gary Lawrence is part of the problem, not the solution.
But what do you suppose he’s up to now (after being handsomely paid for completing his Prop 8 assignment)?
Promoting his latest book, of course.
How Americans View Mormonism (Seven Steps To Improve Our Image)
He’s kidding, right?
So much for the “Mormonism” that meant celebrating the joys of a close-knit family and community.
The rank-and-file gets thrown under the bus while PR types play CYA with their six-digit rewards and media connections.
All the credit and none of the blame.
My Mormon parents were respected in Baptist country for who they were, not for who they aspired/trained/longed to be.
Gary: This is me asking you to show a little more respect.
Why single out Mormons?? Are you kidding me? Oh you poor victims.
Let me introduce myself. My name is Matthew Lawrence, I’m the son of Gary Lawrence, who was in charge of the Yes on 8 Campaign. I also happen to be gay. I know exactly how active the Mormon church has been in passing this amendment, because I could see how freaking busy my dad was. Constantly on the phone, papers all over the office, canvassing lists, flying to Utah to meet with church officials.
I left the church because of this. This was a direct assault on my civil rights by a religious organization. You can’t mince words on this. The Mormon church was responsible for whipping up the mob and spreading disinformation, along the lines of “Gay people want to teach your children about gay marriage! They’re gonna turn your children gay! omg!” Or that gay people are out to ruin marriage for everyone! Never mind the fact that couples who have been together for decades just want some benefits and recognition.
If there’s such a thing as race-baiting, there’s obviously gay-baiting. If you can make gay people seem “foreign”, “unnatural”, or even borderline pedophiles, then of course people will turn out to vote against us.
Mormons who are shocked and are upset that people are targeting the Mormon church have their heads way up their collective butts. And that’s speaking as the gay ex-mormon son of the LDS Grassroots President of the Yes on 8 Campaign.
And by “you” i meant collectively to any Mormons happening to read this.
I am a latter-day saint and I spent at least 10-15 hours a week working to make prop 8 a success. I believe what I did was right and I will double my efforts if the issue comes up again!
Bring it on!
Matt, I can’t imagine the frustration and pain that you must be feeling. I read your story on the Daily Kos and also your dad’s article comparing gays to the spirits led away by Satan in the pre-existence. Geez. You poor kid.
I hope that you also know there are many Mormons who were adamently opposed to the LDS involvement on Prop 8. Personally I was sickened by it. If you read through the site, you will see it is not a pro-8 site either. Rather it is for informational purposes only. If it were not for sites like this, we would have had no way of knowing just how “involved” Mormons were in this. The donor lists are public, but we would never have known just how many individual Mormons had contributed were it not for this site. The title of this thread is “why single out Mormons?” It then goes on to answer that question.
I was raised in a great Mormon family, graduated from BYU, married in the temple, started reproducing as a good Mormon woman should. But my growing feminism was accompanied by an increasing awareness of my second-class status within the church. I tried to carve out my own little niche in it for awhile, because it was scary to imagine my life without it. But ultimately I stopped attending a few years ago because I realized that there was no place for me there anymore. So in a way, I kind of understand where you’re coming from. Feminists are only slightly less despised than gays in the church. I have kept the things that I found to be valuable that I learned from my religion and discarded the rest.
I do totally understand the urge to lash out at the church. Collectively, it has done a despicable thing to human rights. But I hope that people will refrain from violence, damaging church property, sending envelopes filled with talc to the temples, etc. These things only fuel the “persecution complex” that Mormons already have. It directly plays into their “The last days are upon us! The wicked have targeted the Lord’s true church! Brace yourselves–the Second Coming is nigh” rhetoric. We just become characters playing out the plot in their end-of-times meta-narrative.
The best thing we can do is continue to appeal for equality and human rights, and show the LDS community that we can have loving, committed relationships; strong, enduring, self-defined families; and happy, fulfilling lives in spite of their surety that we cannot.
I was raised in the Mormon Church by a mother who was raised in the Mormon Church by a mother who was raised in the Mormon Church by polygamist parents. My Mormon roots run deep. My best friend until he died was my youngest brother - he was gay, but I loved him unconditionally.
When I married, my non-Mormon husband converted to the Church and we went to the temple. But, like Lara (and undoubtedly others), my own beliefs about my value as a woman and the unconditional acceptance of people as a whole never felt supported within the Church.
I have a STRONG belief about the separation of Church and State. This isn’t a recent conversion, but something that has always been a part of my democratic core. I believe that every person had the right to decide their own path.
It would not be wrong to say that my spiritual and political beliefs were at odds with the Church on more than one occasion. In my world view there is room for all sorts of beliefs and my right to enforce my beliefs on you “ends at your nose.”
I have yet to understand how a law that allows two people who love one another and are committed to one another to legally call themselves married is a bad thing. Fair play to those who can make marriage work for the long-haul. How is allowing someone to have a right that “ends at my nose” and doesn’t take away from any of my own rights a bad thing?
Robert,
Be careful what you wish for. California’s Supreme Court has agreed to hear the case against Prop 8. The petitioners say Prop 8 constitutes a revision rather than an amendment to the state constitution. While an amendment requires only a simple majority vote, a revision to the constitution requires a 2/3 majority vote plus 2/3 of the legislature vote.
Good luck with that.
As someone who has two gay people in my family, I am sickened that Prop 8 passed. The lies that the Yes on 8 supporters spread was hateful. One of the lines that irked me the most was this: “we must protect the sanctity of marriage.” With more than half of straight people’s marriages ending in divorce, this to me sounded ludicrous. Not only that, but how can you claim sanctity of marriage when there are heterosexuals who get married by Elvis impersonators and get married at drive through wedding chapels? I am from Utah with a brother who is Mormon and I really am upset and saddened with the Mormon Church’s involvement. Funny from a church that used to have polygamous marriages and only got rid of that practice when Utah wanted to become a state. Now remember my dear Mormon friends, didn’t the early members of the LDS church get banished from other states because of their “weird” beliefs and practices? I hope if this comes to the voters again, that the voters won’t believe lies that are spewed forth by the Yes on 8 team.
Thanks for your article, but a first-run read brings through some inconsistencies.
#3, you have prop8 donation = tithing, but the linked article it clearly reads as prop8 donation<tithing.
Both #6a and #6b employ a logical fallacy. Instead of using #6b to play the same game, ’tis better to identify the fallacy in the first place.
#11 - your 1st and 2nd section of #11 do not appear to even be on the same subject. #11a = reasons why church claims to be able to enter into the political arena on non-candidate issues. #11b = when church does so, the arguments should be valued on their merits.
Personally, I feel that to further LGBT issues, singling out groups such as the mormons is a backwards step. The best way is to stay active in civics and to be honorable in one’s life.
I have to say that I have been very curious about proposition 8 as a resident of California. My perspective is this - I have a younger brother who was gay for several years. He even had a consistent partner for about three years. When he expressed to my mother (single and divorced) that he might be gay when he was about 18 years old, she didn’t know how to respond. She just told him that she loved him no matter the circumstances. She called some professionals (this was in the 1980’s), and they told her to encourage him to accept his homosexuality and to become happy with who he was. She did exactly that, trying the best she knew how to help him.
Well, he lived a homosexual life for approximately 12 years (until the late 1990’s) and had several boyfriends, incuding the one very serious one I mentioned above. He still felt unfulfilled in life and sought professional help. He went to one therapist for about a year, and this guy focused on helping my brother celebrate his homosexuality. He was still not satisfied, and he went to another therapist who asked my brother if he had ever explored the soruce of his homosexuality, and he responded that he hadn’t really focused on the source. To make a very, very long story short, my brother is now a happy heterosexual individual who is married to a wonderful woman. They have two beautiful children. He looks at his homosexual years as lost years, as an era when society kept telling him to accept the facts and not try to change. It has been so rewarding for me to see him so happy and fulfilled now. I am so glad that an increasing number of therapists are willing to treat the homosexual condition despite threats and criticism.
Sounds to me like your brother is bisexual, not gay. I’m glad he found the right partner and happiness, but that is no reason to conclude that homosexuality is a pathological condition that can or should be remedied. There are many, many gays and lesbians who have never been nor could ever be attracted to a person of the opposite sex, just as there are many heterosexuals who have never been nor could ever be attracted to a person of the same sex.
So we aren’t supposed to group everyone into one big group:
“Just as it is bad for Mormons who feel persecuted for supporting Prop 8 to lump into one violent group all Prop 8 opponents”
But as a counter you to points 3 and 10, you group all mormon council to that offered by a small handful of their religious leaders or members. Or for #10 refering to whatever amount believed that they should excommunicate whoever was PLANNING to vote no or either to ask them after if they voted no (in the 2 day window between election day and this statement).
By the way I am LDS.
Maybe you are right, but if that is the case, I think there are many more bisexuals than homosexuals as most homosexuals admit to having been in a heterosexual relationship at one time or another. If a homosexual, as you defined it, is so anti opposite sex, it is weird that so many have been able to at least “experiment” with heterosexuality.
The psychologist that helped my brother discover the source of his homosexuality and overcome it is a Stanford PhD who was 100% in the homosexuality-is-biological camp until he started having success treating a couple of gay individuals for depression. He was forced to reconsider his position as time and again he was able to help these individuals change. He has helped over 40 such individuals to make the correction in their lives. He has frequently been criticized for daring to treat the condition, and he has even seen his house vandalized a couple of times over the years as patients have told their gay friends that he is treating them. I am just glad that he has the courage to continue his work.
He told my brother that while homosexuals don’t choose their lifestyle in most cases (because it is something that frequently begins in early childhood), many choose not to confront it when presented with the facts because it takes a lot of courage and dedication. He does not blame them, but he does let them know that there is an alternative.
James, I really appreciate reading your post about your brother. I have a close friend who has struggled with homosexual tendencies. He had no interest in such experiences until he was molested as a young teen by an older individual. From that time, he held an interest in the Gay lifestyle, which he ultimately began to live because he had been introduced to the experience.
For over 10 years now, he has been living out of that lifestyle and is regretting the loss of time he could have spent with his female friend that is, and was even through his gay experience, his soulmate.
Would you be able to provide me the name of the individual who successfully treated your brother? My family friend still struggles with moving forward and could really use the assistance of a trained and knowledgeable professional.
I thought the LDS church, which I joined when I was 13, was about “joy” and about “free agency”. It scares me a bit when the leadership of the church tells members to support or donate time & money to something that is secular, and then issues threats to cut them off socially or officially. That does not sound like free agency to me. I guess I don’t understand why the church is so threatened by “gay marriage”? I wished someone would explain why they are so aggressive in their stance against it. Is it because most mormon men are secretly gay and will be able to express their sexuality if it’s legalized? Honestly, I want to know. Why does Utah have the highest suicide rate in the nation amongst gay males? Why are there so many gay males in Utah? I recently visited Utah for the first time and found some extremely emasculated males everywhere I went. Shopping at the mall the men were “gay acting” but supposedly straight. Everywhere I went they seemed like gay men. This must be the reason I feel, that the church is opposed to gay marriage, they are protecting all those gay men perhaps who are willfully not expressing their sexuality? Not sure. If there are so many gay men being born in Utah it stands genetically to reason that one or several of the men who crossed the plains and who practiced heterosexual polygamy have passed on the “gay gene” and now their seed are multiplying. It also is curious to me that a church, LDS (which I love dearly by the way) has been so terribly marginalized by society for THEIR practices in marriage (Polygamy) that they would then torment other sectors of society on their marriage wants and beliefs. I wonder how many poor families the money the members of the church were told to donate to prop8 would have helped in a very real way vs this stuff?
Thank you for that information, James. My area is sociology and women’s studies, and I admit to not having much knowledge of psychology. Perhaps there is some merit there. I just worry that people will jump on the idea that homosexuality can be “cured.” Many LGBTs, especially those raised in very religious households, will internalize a deep sense of guilt and shame. Sometimes it even leads to suicide. If you look at the LDS web site, Affirmation, there is a special section dedicated to gay Mormons who have committed suicide. That breaks my heart–that someone would be led to believe that erasing oneself from existence is the only acceptable answer. There has to be a better way. I just hope the church becomes more accepting of gays and lesbians over time.
I tend to see human sexuality as well as gender identity on a continuum. Some will be firmly on one side or the other, others will be scattered somewhere along the continuum. Perhaps that does mean that there are more bisexuals than we might think. What’s interesting to me is the studies that some sociologists and gender theorists have done of perceived “masculine” vs. “feminine” traits. Most people, male and female, tend to fall somewhere along the middle–having a mix of both perceived “masculine” and “feminine” traits. Societal institutions tend to paint men and women as the polar opposites of each other. We are actually much more alike than we are different.
is the purpose of this web site so we can take revenge on mormons who contributed to the 8 campaign? please list their addresses, and also list religious affiliation of other contributors, with the addresses of their churches so we can know who they are, too, and get them as well.
I find it funny that you try and minimize the effect of mormon’s on this election on a site called “mormons48″. Forget prop 8, a little scrutiny on the LDS church is LONG overdo. I can’t wait to see the audit of how much money comes into the church and how much goes out to charities. Small percentages, I promise. That will be interesting.
Thanks for the insight, James. I think that in a couple of generations from now, people will look at these times as the days when society pushed young people experiencing gender confusion into the homsexual lifestyle. For parents and some professionals, it represents an easy way out. Instead of parents realizing that they may have made mistakes, they feel absolved of everything when a professional tells them that their child must be gay, and they should accept it.
I think that as science continues to tell us that homosexuality is not biological, professionals will focus on the true causes and better be able to prevent them. I think progress in this area was set back a few decades by the assumption that homosexuality was genetic (that God made people this way, as some like to say). Thanks to tons of research that provides results to the contrary, the focus can be put in the right place - helping parents and caregivers realize what it is that creates gender/indentity confusion.
I’m confused by this thread. There seems to be a debate about whether or not the Mormon church is bigoted against gays and fought to deprive gays of equal recognition under the law. But isn’t this obvious?
Please correct me if I’ve go this wrong, but my understanding is that the church teaches that being gay is bad. Because it is bad Mormons want to help other Mormons not be gay. One way they want to do this is ensure that society does not view gays as equal to straights.
So, when I declare that I am a happy well adjusted gay man the Mormon church begins to see me as an enemy. In return I see the Mormon church as an enemy. The fact that the Church employed its right to organize on an issue consistent with its teachings and beliefs does not make us enemies. We were enemies long before Prop 8. As long as the church oppresses people like me we will be enemies. We will clash most when the church flexes its power to oppress. This is such a clash. If the church limits its oppression to within its ranks, as it has historically, the clashes will be minimal.
This is my answer to the question of “why mormons?”
As to the guy who thinks that gays “can be cured,” we can’t. Your brother is still gay.
I am pleased that proposition 8 passed. I believe that marriage should only be between a man and a woman. The world is changing, so I doubt that for much longer it will remain that way.
No matter what the votes or people say though, the truth will not change. Men and women were made for each other - naturally. And I believe that God designed it as such.
AMEN DH! I whole-heartedly agree with you. My voting for Prop 8 had nothing to do with hate, but with having society accept something that I believe is not what God intended. Love, as taught in the Bible, does not mean accepting sin, but loving the individual and supporting them to build their relationship with God.
The only thing that I find confusing in all of this is the amount of vitriol displayed on both sides but especially on the part of those who lost. Yes the Mormons may have outspent everyone else but let’s be honest. No amount of money was going to make a majority of people decide to vote against their conscience. And if the argument here is that the money is what makes the difference then couldn’t the same aspersions be made against the winner of the recent presidential election? After all I think the winning side outspent the losing side by a margin of 4 to 1.
Geoff
As long as you wish to see people and groups as enemies you will never be free to just be yourself and will instead always be something else. Gay - Straight does not matter, it’s who you are that matters.